cancel
Showing results for 
Search instead for 
Did you mean: 

Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!

Highlighted
New Neighbor II

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!



@Ham wrote:

This is a serious problem. Unfortunately, Ring is unable to fix it. I reported it about 6 months ago and nothing was done to fix this very bad issue. A big stigma on Ring for this unprofessional business! 


@Ham and @Ruuny  ,

This original old post was started over a year ago by  @SoriceConsulting , while utilizing the Generation1 Motion-Detection sensors.  The Gen1 sensors do have a "Dwell-Time" of 3-minutes (the period that they 'wait' before they can transmit another Z-Wave signal to the Alarm Base Station).  After the initial 'triggered' motion event ("motion detected"), the sensor will NOT send another Z-Wave signal to the Base Station until the Dwell-Time has expired (and "stopped detecting motion").   Also, Dwell-Time is not 4 or 5 minutes, that I've seen in some incorrect posts.  Periods over 3-minutes are the result of continued motion being detected after the Dwell-Time and motion has not ceased.  For Gen1, this is interpreted as a continuation of the same initial trigger event (but only for a little while longer). This prevents the sensor from sending out multiple alerts for the same motion. 

https://support.ring.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001133103-Re-setting-Your-Motion-Detector-After-it-Tri...

 

First, some posts in this online Ring Community website mistakenly state that if the Alarm is set to HOME or AWAY alarm Modes during the Dwell-Time, that FALSE idea that the Motion-Detector will be 'bypassed' and never activate the Alarm system ever!  Once the Dwell-Time is completed without movement, the Motion-sensor will send a Z-Wave status signal to the Base Station that it  clear & ready ("stopped detecting motion" ) , and will instantly trigger the alarm if it detects motion.  Motion-Sensor Dwell-Time is set this way for multiple reasons, and incorporated "on-purpose."  It is constructed this way and Dwell-Time cannot be changed or adjusted by software.

 

Now, the newer Motion-Detector Sensors (Gen2) only have a maximum "Dwell-Time" of 30-seconds, not 3-minutes for the Gen1.  Also, unlike the Gen1, as soon as the 30-second Dwell-Time is finished, if it 'sees' ANY motion, it WILL send another Z-Wave "motion-detected" signal.

 

The likelihood that you exiting, triggering that Gen2 motion-detector to start the 30-second Dwell-Time 'timer', then exiting before the Exit-delay expiration, and then having a thief immediately break-in and start stealing stuff in the remaining Dwell-Time, is practically impossible. 

 

To illustrate this better, let's suppose you have the newer Gen2 motion-sensors and your Alarm Mode Exit Delay is set at 30-seconds, and you have mounted a Motion-sensor and Keypad both right at your doorway.  Now in this example, as you go to the Keypad to arm the alarm system, your movement triggers the motion-sensor which commences the 30-second Dwell-Time timer.  But let's say that you are super-duper blazing fast and can then type your 4 digital code into the keypad, press an arming mode button, open your door, exit, shut the door, and deadbolt lock it, all in only 1-second.  You gave yourself 30-seconds to get out, but the Dwell-Time 'timer' had already started a moment prior to you reaching the keypad.  As the Alarm Exit-Delay counts down to arm at 30-seconds, the motion-detector will have already finished it's entire Dwell-Time before the Alarm countdown!

 

For another extreme example, let's suppose your Keypad is nowhere near your exit door, and a Gen1 Motion-Sensor is monitoring this door.  You press the arm button and the 30-second Exit-delay countdown starts, and then you reach the door and exit with only 1-second remaining to arm-time .  .  . and suppose it's at that very last 1-second instant that the Motion-sensor first 'sees' you and starts it's 30-second Dwell-Time.  In this unrealistic example, in 29-seconds your Motion-sensor will finish it's Dwell-Time.  Remember you are still walking away from the door during this 29-second period, so the thief is most likely gonna wait a few, for you to depart.  But suppose you are super-duper fast and somehow manage to walk to your car, get inside, start it, and then speed-off in only 1-second.  So now, a thief needs to instantly break-in and start stealing in the remaining 28-seconds before the siren sounds!  As you can see, this example is an extreme impossibility, and that realistically the Dwell-Time will be finished before you even have reached your car.  This example is totally unrealistic, unless this thief is magically  even more super-duper faster than you!  

 

Even if you own the older Gen1 motion-sensors (Dwell-Time of 3-minutes), and you set an exit-delay at it's maximum of 180-seconds (3-minutes), in this case, the Motion-sensors will already be ready by arm time.  And if you use a Gen1 sensor with a 30-second exit-delay, the absolute maximum time a thief could possibly have is 150-seconds, and that's if the thief breaks-in instantly after you did your super-duper departure.  If this short 150-second time still concerns you, then just hang out for a few at your door.  Or invest in the newer Gen2 sensors (not available in all countries, but will be soon).  But realistically in 150-seconds you are just starting your car (still at your house).

 

So, I disagree with you @Ham .  This is NOT a serious issue at all. 

 

OK, you might ask, "How do you know the Gen2 Dwell-Time is only 30-seconds Max?  I cannot find that Dwell number anywhere."   It is explained here:

 

https://community.ring.com/t5/Ring-Alarm/Things-you-DIDN-T-WANT-TO-KNOW-about-Motion-Detectors/m-p/4...

 

I hope this information is helpful to you and alleviates any major concerns you have about Motion-Sensor "Dwell-Time."    Smiley Happy

 

 

 

 

Highlighted
New Neighbor

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!

After reading your explanation and opinion I understood that you and probably the whole Ring team simply do not understand the security systems technology and this particular problem as well. This well explained to me why the Ring system is just a mediocre design. I installed it and it and use it but I do not consider it as a serious system and cannot recommend it. For me, it is not very important because I designed and implemented other security measures that are more reliable and provide much better protection. However, Ring has some useful features that I use as an addition to my own system.

Highlighted
New Neighbor II

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!


@Ham , I guess you are super-duper blazing fast.

 

Highlighted
New Neighbor

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!

No, I am an old and disabled person. However, I am a specialist in the security systems for banks, cars, homes, etc. About 50 years ago I founded a very successful security company and run it for more than 10 years until my immigration to the US. This is why I have experience in this, not an easy engineering area.

Highlighted
New Neighbor II

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!

@Ham wrote:

No, I am an old and disabled person. However, I am a specialist in the security systems for banks, cars, homes, etc. About 50 years ago I founded a very successful security company and run it for more than 10 years until my immigration to the US. This is why I have experience in this, not an easy engineering area.


I am old also, and I wasn't born in the US either.  But you missed my point about being "super-duper blazing fast".  In my previous explanations, I was trying to make the craziest extreme scenario-examples, to emphasize that during the typical normal routine of arming and departing, a typical thief does NOT have sufficient opportunity to break-in without triggering the alarm

 

But you just said, "you and probably the whole Ring team simply do not understand the security systems technology and this particular problem as well."  A criticism, that all of us are wrong and yet you are correct. 

 

This might be true, but I presented detailed examples of why I have formed my opinion .  .  .  .  and you gave NO examples as to how the Ring alarm system is serious flawed because of the "Dwell-Time" feature of the Motion-Sensors. 

 

You simply don't expect people to change their opinion "just because you say so."  Touting your credentials does indeed add more weight to your opinion, but just because of that, it doesn't make you right.  And the same applies to me with my background, but that alone doesn't make me right either.  I'm am a retired engineer with multiple academic degrees.  And during my childhood, my father professionally installed commercial-grade alarm systems mostly in business establishments, but in homes too.  I learned a lot from my father, and sometimes helped him install alarm systems in houses.  I hated crawling in attics, basements, and tiny spaces, pulling wire through-out the homes .  .  .  but it was good quality "father & son" time. 

 

But at least I've written examples as to the logic I used to form my opinion.  So, I would like to read some of your examples of situations & scenarios that support you view-point, that  "The Dwell-Time of the Ring motion-detector makes it a serious safety flaw." 

 

Also, back in Dec 1, 2019  you wrote, "leave home during the exit delay time .  .  .  with 3 minutes of additional delay."  That is an incorrect statement.  To stress and clarify my point, the "Dwell-Time of 3-minutes (Gen1) is occurring simultaneously & concurrently as the Alarm Exit-Delay count-down is occurring.  The Dwell-Time is NOT an additional 3-minutes that starts after the Exit-Delay has expired.  Even if a thief could break-in before the Dwell-Time was finished (thief would have to be super-duper-blazing-fast and very bold to do it while you are still in the vicinity), the motion-sensor would be ready to trigger the alarm from his movement almost immediately.   

 

You stated in your opinion, sensors must be ready immediately upon arming.  This is not a commercial-grade, high-tech alarm system.  Ring motion-detectors are designed as affordable sensors for household use only.  Unlike most hardwired, professional-grade detectors, Ring sensors are wireless and battery-powered, and ALL Ring sensors are always ON (there is no OFF switch).  These features make it affordable and easy to install and satisfies the needs of most people well.

 

Although a motion-sensor (Gen1) might not immediately be ready at the instant the Exit-Delay is completed, it will be in mere seconds (when normal NON-super-duper-blazing-fast people do their exit routine).  The time between an Armed system and the ability of the Motion-sensor to trigger the alarm is too short for a typical thief, in almost every case.

 

In my case, I set a 30-second Exit-Delay on my Ring Alarm (Gen2) and utilize the Gen2 Motion-sensors (30-second Dwell-Time).  And with my settings, my Gen2 motion-detector IS Ready Immediately at the completion of the arm count-down.  

 

If I'm wrong, I'll gladly admit it, but you haven't given any examples so far to change my opinion.  I honestly and truly welcome your examples to back your claim, and maybe I shall change my mind.  Until then, my opinion remains unchanged.    Smiley Happy

Highlighted
New Neighbor

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!

I understand that the whole company hardly maybe wrong. But it does not matter in this case simply because Ring made an error and many users noted it. The Ring must fix this error instead of wasting time on all these fruitless discussions. 3 minutes of delay for motion sensor may be okay for Home mode and it is definitely much better than 30 seconds. But for Away mode it is absolutely unacceptable and must be fixed. I am very busy and do not have time for these useless discussions. I submitted my opinion to RInd and it is company business to take the corresponding action or not. I think I made what was necessary and will not waste time on this issue anymore.

Highlighted
New Neighbor II

Re: Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!


@Ham wrote:

I understand that the whole company hardly maybe wrong.

 

"But it does not matter in this case simply because Ring made an error and many users noted it."

 

- Yes, it does matter.  Many users noted an perceived error and they were INCORRECT.  YOU were INCORRECT also Dec 2019.  Even DMossEsq later admitted that he was incorrect.

 

"The Ring must fix this error instead of wasting time on all these fruitless

 discussions."

 

- You are being fruitless because  Ring has ALREADY fixed and corrected this with Gen2Ring Gen2 already got the solution for what you've been complaining about with the Gen2.   That's what I've been trying to explain that to you, so please stop saying, "Ring must fix this error."  Because IT IS FIXED with the Gen2.  You wanted the Motion-detector ready immediately when you arm in the AWAY Mode .  .  .  IT IS.  The Gen2 Motion-detector IS READY when the AWAY arm countdown is completed.  There is nothing to fix.  They already fixed it.  I'm repeating myself because you are not hearing it.

 

"3 minutes of delay for motion sensor may be okay for Home mode and it is definitely much better than 30 seconds. But for Away mode it is absolutely unacceptable and must be fixed." 

 

- For AWAY mode, it is fixed for Gen2!  Motion-detector IS ready when AWAY is armed for Gen2.  Plus, you've never given a single example as to why the Gen1 is abolutely unacceptable.  You haven't stated any examples, maybe because you can't think of a reasonable situation/example?

 

"I am very busy and do not have time for these useless discussions. I submitted my opinion to RInd and it is company business to take the corresponding action or not."

 

- Yes, submitted your opinion without any logical explanation as to why it is unacceptable.  Very convenient you to just rant, without 'listening' to any other's opinions.  You give no supporting examples  .  .  .  because you have none.  The Ring company already has fixed you complaints with the Gen2.

 

"I think I made what was necessary and will not waste time on this issue anymore."

 

Good   Smiley Happy