Serious Safety Flaw - please correct!

Spoke to nice Rep named Keith at about 7:45 pm EST. He said that the system is programmed that way to:

  1. Preserve battery life

  2. To avoid false alarms - Example: If a customer had their ‘garage’ motion set to trigger an alarm when in ‘away’ mode - and they then set Ring to ‘away’ (with a zero second delay), and left through the garage, the alarm would trigger. Makes sense - BUT - the onus should be on the CUSTOMER to program their system correctly. This ‘blanket solution’ makes no sense and makes me feel very uncomfortable about this system.

Our previous alarm (that we had for 12 years) would arm motion sensors IMMEDIATELY upon activating ‘away’. Never had an issue.

Hate to say it , but I think this is a ‘money’ setting (false alarms cost Ring money in time lost).

Same thing as the (not sure if everyone knows it) setting that does NOT alert the monitoring station for at least 30 SECONDS when the alarm is triggered (again - a cost savings issue?).

Again, with our previous system, a triggered alarm would result in a phone call from the monitoring station in less than 30 seconds - not 60-90.

Sigh…

The thread is not getting ignored and all information continues to be sent over to the team. We will update you with any information as it comes in. Also, please check out and ensure you are following all Community Guidelines. Thank you!

Jennifer_Ring,

Thanks for replying. Not trying to be negative - overall we love our Ring System. Checked the Community Guidelines and I did contact Support first on this issue (see my posts about what I discovered). Hope you don’t think I fall under any of the other categories!

I’m just very concerned about this issue (as it seems are many others) - including the Support people I’ve talked to about it. Would appreciate a response from your design/engineering team saying why the 3-4 minute ‘dead’ time is imposed between motion sensing events.

And if it can be changed so that it is User controlled.

Thanks!

Jennifer, thank you for this information. As I understood, When I alarm the system and leave the house, the motion sensor will be able to detect motion only after 3 minutes, then work as expected. If this is the truth, there is a big design flaw - poor design. Motion sensor MUST be in full working condition immediately after the system is alarmed! It was detected when I went to the door to leave home during the exit delay time. Then the system switched to the alarm mode and all sensors must be ready. With 3 minutes of additional delay, you are lying to your customers about your product able to protect them. The Ring must immediately fix this problem and replace all sold motion sensors if necessary. Otherwise, it is an illegal business practice.

Can’t understand the design logic (and lack of communication) regarding his important issue. The posts on 10/07/2018 and 10/08/2018 pretty much sum up the situation.

I’m no programmer but it seems to me like it should be fairly easy to make the ‘reset’ time on the motion sensors user-adjustable (ie, 10 seconds, 30 seconds, etc.).

I wish we could get an update from Jennifer_Ring or Riley_Ring - or, better yet, from a Ring programmer / engineer…

Here’s a short extract from my Ring system notifications log:

  1. Entrance hall PIR STOPPED DETECTING MOTION 2/10/20 7:56 PM
  2. Dining room PIR STOPPED DETECTING MOTION 2/10/20 7:56 PM
  3. Ring Alarm CHANGED TO AWAY MODE FROM KEYPAD BY DAVID MOSS 2/10/20 7:53 PM
  4. Front Door CLOSED 2/10/20 7:53 PM
  5. Front Door OPENED 2/10/20 7:53 PM
  6. Entrance hall PIR MOTION DETECTED 2/10/20 7:53 PM
  7. Ring Alarm STARTED EXIT DELAY BY DAVID MOSS 2/10/20 7:53 PM

I walk from the dining room to the entrance hall at 7:53, set the alarm and leave the house. Three minutes later at 7:56 the 2 relevant PIRs say they have stopped detecting motion.

That seems to me to be the problem. Not the fact that you have to wait for 3 minutes before a PIR is armed as per the thread above. Instead, the fact that those PIRs simply will not work, they will be “bypassed”.

Any device detecting motion up to 3 minutes before arming the system is not going to be doing its job. It looks as though Ring have devised a system which only works if you put your motion detectors in the wrong place. Or does “STOPPED DETECTING MOTION” mean “WORKING FINE, NO BURGLAR CAN GET PAST ME UNDETECTED”?

DMossEsq,

Not sure what you mean. Are you saying that if you walk by (and trip) one or more sensors (which you’d obviously do as you’re leaving the house), then arm the system, that they then will be bypassed and remain inactive for the *entire* armed period - not just the 3 minutes?

Doesn’t sound right.

I haven’t tested in a while, but I think the sensors re-arm themselves after the goofy 3 minute wait time has passed.

“Doesn’t sound right”.

Exactly.

That’s why I commented.

If my understanding had been correct Ring would be very unright.

My comment was based on reading documentation on the Ring website and the notification logs of activity on my newly installed system. From all those words I got the impression that some motion detectors could remain inactive while the system was armed.

Turning from words to actions, I have now tested the system and thank goodness I was wrong, I had misunderstood, motion detectors do get their mojo back after a few minutes and start once again to do their job:

  1. Ring Alarm ALARM CLEARED BY DAVID MOSS 2/11/20 2:53 PM
  2. Ring Alarm DISARMED FROM KEYPAD BY DAVID MOSS 2/11/20 2:53 PM
  3. Ring Alarm RING ALARM IS SOUNDING BY DINING ROOM PIR AND MULTIPLE DEVICES 2/11/20 2:53 PM
  4. Dining room PIR MOTION DETECTED 2/11/20 2:53 PM
  5. Ring Alarm ENTRY DELAY CAUSED BY KITCHEN PIR 2/11/20 2:53 PM
  6. Kitchen PIR MOTION DETECTED 2/11/20 2:53 PM
  7. Kitchen PIR STOPPED DETECTING MOTION 2/11/20 2:52 PM
  8. Entrance hall PIR STOPPED DETECTING MOTION 2/11/20 2:52 PM
  9. Dining room PIR STOPPED DETECTING MOTION 2/11/20 2:52 PM
  10. Ring Alarm CHANGED TO AWAY MODE FROM KEYPAD BY DAVID MOSS 2/11/20 2:49 PM
  11. Front Door CLOSED 2/11/20 2:49 PM
  12. Front Door OPENED 2/11/20 2:48 PM
  13. Ring Alarm STARTED EXIT DELAY BY DAVID MOSS 2/11/20 2:48 PM
  14. Kitchen PIR MOTION DETECTED 2/11/20 2:48 PM

I set the alarm, opened the door and closed it but didn’t leave the house (10-13), instead I went to the kitchen at 2:49 where motion had been detected at 2:48 (14). I read an article about the world economy grinding to a halt due to coronavirus until at 2:53 the kitchen PIR woke up (5-6), spotted me and triggered the alarm.

When the log says “Kitchen PIR STOPPED DETECTING MOTION” (7) does it actually mean “Kitchen PIR STARTED DETECTING MOTION”? That’s what it looks like. Before 2:53 the PIR couldn’t detect me, after 2:52 it could. The words are odd, don’t believe them, do a test.

Glad your test verified that they do work after the 3 minute ‘rest’. Now if they would let us users determine how quickly the sensors come back online all would be good. A lot of bad can happen in 3 minutes…

Thank you for sharing your experience and detailed observations @DMossEsq! The help center article you shared prior, for Bypassing Alarm Devices, is great information for the scenario where bypass is necessary.

This help center article about Re-setting Your Motion Detector After it Triggers contains more information specific to this “dwell time” after triggering. I hope this helps! :slight_smile:

Marley,

Thanks for the info. However, there seem to be quite a few Users that think having a sensor effectively go ‘dead’ for 3 minutes is a security risk.

As I mentioned back in October (see previous post), why not give US the choice. Here’s the post:


I agree 100%. Having a motion sensor go ‘dead’ after detecting motion is just plain dumb. The only thing I can think of is they do this to preserve battery life. I also agree that this should be an option that can be changed by the user.

Can anyone at Ring give us a clear explanation of the logic behind making motion sensors go dead for 3-4 minutes after detecting motion? And why can’t you just update the software/firmware to make it a user setting?

Example setting I’d love to see:

After inital motion detection, pause addtional motion detection for:

a) 0 seconds

b) 30 seconds

c) 1 minute

d) 2 minutes

e) 3 minutes

Note: Setting a lower pause time may impact battery life.

1 Like

Just got Ring in the UK and have noticed this same flaw.
How can the system take 3 mins to reactivate a motion sensor after the alarm is armed? This should be immediate.

This is a serious problem. Unfortunately, Ring is unable to fix it. I reported it about 6 months ago and nothing was done to fix this very bad issue. A big stigma on Ring for this unprofessional business!

@Ham wrote:

This is a serious problem. Unfortunately, Ring is unable to fix it. I reported it about 6 months ago and nothing was done to fix this very bad issue. A big stigma on Ring for this unprofessional business!

@Ham and @Ruuny ,

This original old post was started over a year ago by @SoriceConsulting , while utilizing the Generation1 Motion-Detection sensors. The Gen1 sensors do have a “Dwell-Time” of 3-minutes (the period that they ‘wait’ before they can transmit another Z-Wave signal to the Alarm Base Station). After the initial ‘triggered’ motion event (“motion detected”), the sensor will NOT send another Z-Wave signal to the Base Station until the Dwell-Time has expired (and “stopped detecting motion”). Also, Dwell-Time is not 4 or 5 minutes, that I’ve seen in some incorrect posts. Periods over 3-minutes are the result of continued motion being detected after the Dwell-Time and motion has not ceased. For Gen1, this is interpreted as a continuation of the same initial trigger event (but only for a little while longer). This prevents the sensor from sending out multiple alerts for the same motion.

https://support.ring.com/hc/en-gb/articles/360001133103-Re-setting-Your-Motion-Detector-After-it-Triggers

First, some posts in this online Ring Community website mistakenly state that if the Alarm is set to HOME or AWAY alarm Modes during the Dwell-Time, that FALSE idea that the Motion-Detector will be ‘bypassed’ and never activate the Alarm system ever! Once the Dwell-Time is completed without movement , the Motion-sensor will send a Z-Wave status signal to the Base Station that it _ _ clear & ready (“stopped detecting motion” ) , and will instantly trigger the alarm if it detects motion. Motion-Sensor Dwell-Time is set this way for multiple reasons, and incorporated “on-purpose.” It is constructed this way and Dwell-Time cannot be changed or adjusted by software.

Now, the newer Motion-Detector Sensors ( Gen2 ) only have a maximum “Dwell-Time” of 30-seconds , not 3-minutes for the Gen1. Also, unlike the Gen1, as soon as the 30-second Dwell-Time is finished, if it ‘sees’ ANY motion, it WILL send another Z-Wave “motion-detected” signal.

The likelihood that you exiting, triggering that Gen2 motion-detector to start the 30-second Dwell-Time ‘timer’, then exiting before the Exit-delay expiration, and then having a thief immediately break-in and start stealing stuff in the remaining Dwell-Time, is practically impossible.

To illustrate this better, let’s suppose you have the newer Gen2 motion-sensors and your Alarm Mode Exit Delay is set at 30-seconds, and you have mounted a Motion-sensor and Keypad both right at your doorway. Now in this example, as you go to the Keypad to arm the alarm system, your movement triggers the motion-sensor which commences the 30-second Dwell-Time timer. But let’s say that you are super-duper blazing fast and can then type your 4 digital code into the keypad, press an arming mode button, open your door, exit, shut the door, and deadbolt lock it, all in only 1-second. You gave yourself 30-seconds to get out, but the Dwell-Time ‘timer’ had already started a moment prior to you reaching the keypad. As the Alarm Exit-Delay counts down to arm at 30-seconds, the motion-detector will have already finished it’s entire Dwell-Time before the Alarm countdown!

For another extreme example, let’s suppose your Keypad is nowhere near your exit door, and a Gen1 Motion-Sensor is monitoring this door. You press the arm button and the 30-second Exit-delay countdown starts, and then you reach the door and exit with only 1-second remaining to arm-time . . . and suppose it’s at that very last 1-second instant that the Motion-sensor first ‘sees’ you and starts it’s 30-second Dwell-Time. In this unrealistic example, in 29-seconds your Motion-sensor will finish it’s Dwell-Time. Remember you are still walking away from the door during this 29-second period, so the thief is most likely gonna wait a few, for you to depart. But suppose you are super-duper fast and somehow manage to walk to your car, get inside, start it, and then speed-off in only 1-second. So now, a thief needs to instantly break-in and start stealing in the remaining 28-seconds before the siren sounds! As you can see, this example is an extreme impossibility, and that realistically the Dwell-Time will be finished before you even have reached your car. This example is totally unrealistic, unless this thief is magically even more super-duper faster than you!

Even if you own the older Gen1 motion-sensors (Dwell-Time of 3-minutes), and you set an exit-delay at it’s maximum of 180-seconds (3-minutes), in this case, the Motion-sensors will already be ready by arm time. And if you use a Gen1 sensor with a 30-second exit-delay, the absolute maximum time a thief could possibly have is 150-seconds, and that’s if the thief breaks-in instantly after you did your super-duper departure. If this short 150-second time still concerns you, then just hang out for a few at your door. Or invest in the newer Gen2 sensors (not available in all countries, but will be soon). But realistically in 150-seconds you are just starting your car (still at your house).

So, I disagree with you @Ham . This is NOT a serious issue at all.

OK, you might ask, _“How do you know the Gen2 Dwell-Time is only 30-seconds Max? I cannot find that Dwell number anywhere.” _ It is explained here:

https://community.ring.com/t5/Ring-Alarm/Things-you-DIDN-T-WANT-TO-KNOW-about-Motion-Detectors/m-p/49013#M4879

I hope this information is helpful to you and alleviates any major concerns you have about Motion-Sensor “Dwell-Time.” :slight_smile:

@TechGuy42 ,
@Jennifer_Ring
, @jonnyd91 ,
@LSchaub
,
@uscpsycho
,
@DMossEsq
,
@Marley_Ring
,
@Ruuny
, @davefrombostons , @CrazyCat , @TimInTN , @Kris , @Finz

1 Like

After reading your explanation and opinion I understood that you and probably the whole Ring team simply do not understand the security systems technology and this particular problem as well. This well explained to me why the Ring system is just a mediocre design. I installed it and it and use it but I do not consider it as a serious system and cannot recommend it. For me, it is not very important because I designed and implemented other security measures that are more reliable and provide much better protection. However, Ring has some useful features that I use as an addition to my own system.

@Ham , I guess you are super-duper blazing fast.

No, I am an old and disabled person. However, I am a specialist in the security systems for banks, cars, homes, etc. About 50 years ago I founded a very successful security company and run it for more than 10 years until my immigration to the US. This is why I have experience in this, not an easy engineering area.

@Ham wrote:

No, I am an old and disabled person. However, I am a specialist in the security systems for banks, cars, homes, etc. About 50 years ago I founded a very successful security company and run it for more than 10 years until my immigration to the US. This is why I have experience in this, not an easy engineering area.

I am old also, and I wasn’t born in the US either. But you missed my point about being "super-duper blazing fast". In my previous explanations, I was trying to make the craziest extreme scenario-examples, to emphasize that during the typical normal routine of arming and departing, a typical thief does NOT have sufficient opportunity to break-in without triggering the alarm.

But you just said, _"_you and probably the whole Ring team simply do not understand the security systems technology and this particular problem as well." A criticism, that all of us are wrong and yet you are correct.

This might be true, but I presented detailed examples of why I have formed my opinion . . . . and you gave NO examples as to how the Ring alarm system is serious flawed because of the “Dwell-Time” feature of the Motion-Sensors.

You simply don’t expect people to change their opinion “just because you say so.” Touting your credentials does indeed add more weight to your opinion, but just because of that, it doesn’t make you right. And the same applies to me with my background, but that alone doesn’t make me right either. I’m am a retired engineer with multiple academic degrees. And during my childhood, my father professionally installed commercial-grade alarm systems mostly in business establishments, but in homes too. I learned a lot from my father, and sometimes helped him install alarm systems in houses. I hated crawling in attics, basements, and tiny spaces, pulling wire through-out the homes . . . but it was good quality “father & son” time.

But at least I’ve written examples as to the logic I used to form my opinion. So, I would like to read some of your examples of situations & scenarios that support you view-point, that “The Dwell-Time of the Ring motion-detector makes it a serious safety flaw.”

Also, back in Dec 1, 2019 you wrote, “leave home during the exit delay time . . . with 3 minutes of additional delay.” That is an incorrect statement. To stress and clarify my point, the "Dwell-Time of 3-minutes (Gen1) is occurring simultaneously & concurrently as the Alarm Exit-Delay count-down is occurring. The Dwell-Time is NOT an additional 3-minutes that starts after the Exit-Delay has expired. Even if a thief could break-in before the Dwell-Time was finished (thief would have to be super-duper-blazing-fast and very bold to do it while you are still in the vicinity), the motion-sensor would be ready to trigger the alarm from his movement almost immediately.

You stated in your opinion, sensors must be ready immediately upon arming. This is not a commercial-grade, high-tech alarm system. Ring motion-detectors are designed as affordable sensors for household use only. Unlike most hardwired, professional-grade detectors, Ring sensors are wireless and battery-powered, and ALL Ring sensors are always ON (there is no OFF switch). These features make it affordable and easy to install and satisfies the needs of most people well.

Although a motion-sensor (Gen1) might not immediately be ready at the instant the Exit-Delay is completed, it will be in mere seconds (when normal NON-super-duper-blazing-fast people do their exit routine). The time between an Armed system and the ability of the Motion-sensor to trigger the alarm is too short for a typical thief, in almost every case.

In my case, I set a 30-second Exit-Delay on my Ring Alarm (Gen2) and utilize the Gen2 Motion-sensors (30-second Dwell-Time). And with my settings, my Gen2 motion-detector IS Ready Immediately at the completion of the arm count-down.

If I’m wrong, I’ll gladly admit it, but you haven’t given any examples so far to change my opinion. I honestly and truly welcome your examples to back your claim, and maybe I shall change my mind. Until then, my opinion remains unchanged. :slight_smile:

I understand that the whole company hardly maybe wrong. But it does not matter in this case simply because Ring made an error and many users noted it. The Ring must fix this error instead of wasting time on all these fruitless discussions. 3 minutes of delay for motion sensor may be okay for Home mode and it is definitely much better than 30 seconds. But for Away mode it is absolutely unacceptable and must be fixed. I am very busy and do not have time for these useless discussions. I submitted my opinion to RInd and it is company business to take the corresponding action or not. I think I made what was necessary and will not waste time on this issue anymore.

@Ham wrote:

I understand that the whole company hardly maybe wrong.

“But it does not matter in this case simply because Ring made an error and many users noted it.”

  • Yes, it does matter. Many users noted an perceived error and they were INCORRECT. YOU** were INCORRECT also Dec 2019**. Even DMossEsq later admitted that he was incorrect.

"The Ring must fix this error instead of wasting time on all these fruitless

_ discussions_."

  • You are being fruitless because Ring has ALREADY fixed and corrected this with Gen2. Ring Gen2 already got the solution for what you’ve been complaining about with the Gen2. That’s what I’ve been trying to explain that to you, so please stop saying, “Ring must fix this error.” Because IT IS FIXED with the Gen2. You wanted the Motion-detector ready immediately when you arm in the AWAY Mode . . . IT IS. The Gen2 Motion-detector IS READY when the AWAY arm countdown is completed. There is nothing to fix. They already fixed it. I’m repeating myself because you are not hearing it.

_“3 minutes of delay for motion sensor may be okay for Home mode and it is definitely much better than 30 seconds. But for Away mode it is absolutely unacceptable and must be fixed.” _

  • For AWAY mode, it is fixed for Gen2! Motion-detector IS ready when AWAY is armed for Gen2. Plus, you’ve never given a single example as to why the Gen1 is abolutely unacceptable. You haven’t stated any examples, maybe because you can’t think of a reasonable situation/example?

“I am very busy and do not have time for these useless discussions. I submitted my opinion to RInd and it is company business to take the corresponding action or not.”

  • Yes, submitted your opinion without any logical explanation as to why it is unacceptable. Very convenient you to just rant, without ‘listening’ to any other’s opinions. You give no supporting examples . . . because you have none. The Ring company already has fixed you complaints with the Gen2.

“I think I made what was necessary and will not waste time on this issue anymore.”

Good :slight_smile: